美版知乎:古代中国有多强大

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How powerful was ancient China?

古代中国有多强大?

以下是Quora读者的评论:

Matt Riggsby, MA Archaeology, Boston University

It varied a lot. For chunks of antiquity and into the early modern period it was the most populous, most technologically advanced, and wealthiest country on Earth, except when it wasn’t. Early China (say, the Han dynasty) was reasonably comparable to the Roman empire in terms of reach, wealth, population (in the general vicinity of 60 million), and technology. After the Han collapsed in 220 AD, China fragmented into a variety of successor states, much as Rome did not long thereafter. At that point, it’s hard to speak of “China” as such until the Sui reunified the country in the 580s. At that point, China resumed its place as the most powerful country in the world (the population topped 100 million by the 12th century) until they were taken over by the Mongols and incorporated into Ghengis Khan’s empire. That only lasted a few generations until the Chinese reasserted themselves with the Ming dynasty, who were in turn displaced by the Qing. During all of this, they were either the most powerful nation in the world or part of the most powerful nation, but around the seventeenth or eighteenth century, things changed. Chinese technology fell behind, and the power of smaller but more technologically advanced nations eclipsed it. By the nineteenth century, China was entirely subjugated to a loose alliance of smaller nations on the other side of the planet.

中国的变化很大。从古代到近现代的大部分时间,它一直是地球上人口最多、技术最先进、最富有的国家。早期的中国(比如汉朝)在地域、财富、人口(大约6000万)和科技方面与罗马帝国不相上下。公元220年汉朝灭亡后,中国分裂成多个国家,就像罗马在那之后不久遭遇的那样。在当时,很难称中国为“中国”,直到隋朝在公元580年重新统一了这个国家。那时,中国重新成为世界上最强大的国家(12世纪,人口超过了1亿),直到被蒙古人接管且并入成吉思汗的帝国。这种情况只持续了几代人,随后中国又进入了明朝时期,而明朝后来又被清朝所取代。在这期间,他们要么是世界上最强大的国家,要么是最强大国家的一部分,但在17或18世纪左右,情况发生了变化。中国的科技水平落后了,更为先进的小国的实力超越了中国。到了19世纪,中国完全被地球另一边的小国组成的松散联盟所征服。

While China was certainly powerful, it was also subject to certain limitations. A large part of its power was based on being large and being able to mobilize the surplus of large numbers of people. Its technological advantages, while real, weren’t leaps and bounds ahead of other regions. Better stuff was available, but that ultimately didn’t make the kinds of order-of-magnitudes differences between, say, the use of water power in 18th century Europe vs. 18th century China. China’s military capabilities were also underdeveloped; the order-loving Confucians who governed China didn’t like soldiers and were delighted to spend millions on tribute instead of pennies on defense. Its broad borders meant that it faced multiple potential threats which often sapped its strength, and China exhibited the same kinds of chronic weakness against steppe-living horse archer-heavy armies which plagued other settled societies. China could muster a bigger army than anyone they’d be likely to fight, but might have to fight on multiple fronts. Likewise, their naval capabilities, both militarily and in terms of merchant shipping, were underdeveloped for its size, particularly in the Ming and Qing dynasties.

中国固然强大,但也有一定的局限性。它的实力很大程度上是建立在地域广阔和能够调动大量人口的基础上的。它的科技优势虽然真实存在,但并没有超越其他地区。虽然有更好的材料,但这最终并没有使18世纪的欧洲和18世纪的中国之间出现数量级的差异。中国的军事能力也不发达;统治中国的偏爱秩序感的儒家不喜欢士兵,他们乐于花费数百万元进贡,而不是把钱用于防御。辽阔的疆界意味着中国面临着多重潜在威胁,而这些威胁往往会削弱中国的实力,而中国在对付困扰其他定居社会的草原骏马、重弓箭手方面也表现出同样的弱点。中国可以召集一支比任何人都要强大的军队,但可能要在多条战线上作战。同样,他们的海军能力,无论是在军船还是在商船方面,规模都不发达,尤其是在明清时期。

 

Patrik Sakai

Ancient China was probably the most powerful civlization on earth they had gears for mechanics way before probably any other civilization, and they were ahead in all forms of technology. Gunpowder agricultural technology paper water mines giant ships that they reached America with before colombus.

古代中国可能是地球上最强大的文明,他们的机械装置可能比任何其他文明都要早,而且他们技术处于领先地位。火药、农业技术、造纸、水、矿山、巨轮,在哥伦布之前就到达了美洲。

 

Choi Wonseok, Korean Canadian living in the US, ROK Army Released Reserve

As a student of history, I will just state this fact from the Book of Sui.

作为一名历史系的学生,我就举《隋书》为例陈述一下。

Between 598 - 614AD, the Sui dynasty launched a series of campaigns against the Koreanic kingdom of Koguryo (‘Koreanic’ is a historical syntax term by the way. If you don’t know what that is, just ignore).

公元598年至614年,隋朝对高句丽王国发动了一系列战争(“Koreanic”是一个历史语法术语)。如果你不知道那是什么,就忽略它吧。

Including, supply trains, reinforcements, laborers, and camp followers, 1,100,000 Chinese were involved in the campaigns.

包括补给车、援军、劳工和营地追随者在内,110万中国人参加了这场战争。

This is the largest military campaign in human history until World War I.

这是第一次世界大战前人类历史上最大规模的军事行动。

 

Chen Yankai, Inner Asia History Lover

If one likes China, he’ll take every big battle the Chinese won in the history. If someone hates China, he’ll just write what he can write to slander China. My answer is only for men who are rational and at a neutral place.

如果一个人喜欢中国,他就会留意到中国历史上赢得的每一场大战。如果一个人讨厌中国,他就会尽力描写诽谤中国的东西。我的回答只适用于理性和中立的人。

You can point out ANY wrong points in my answer. Thanks.

我的回答中要是有任何错误的地方,欢迎指正。谢谢。

China as a country lasting for more than 3000 years, of course, have some fallings and risings. It’s not so simple to say whether it was powerful.

中国作为一个存续了3000多年的国家,当然也有过兴衰起伏。很难定义它究竟强不强大。

Now, I’ll start writing something about its lucky/good days.

Lucky days:

现在,我先说说中国的幸运/好日子。

幸运时期:

No. 1: 133BC—91 AD

Han dynasty won the hundreds of years’ war between Xiongnu and Han.

No. 1: 公元前133年至公元91年

汉朝打赢了和匈奴之间持续数百年的战争。

Though suffering the great loss at the Battle of Baideng and admitting the Xiongnu Empire as the dominant power and being a tributary to it for more than 60 years, the Han Empire never forgot that insult. They were peasants, farmers and businessmen. Yet, they built a powerful cavalry that had the ability to defeat the Xiongnu deep in the heart of t荣华彩票appheir own homeland—the great steppe of Mongolia.

汉朝虽然在白登之围中遭受了巨大损失,承认匈奴帝国为主宰者,并作为其附属国隐忍了60多年之久,但汉朝从未忘记这一耻辱。他们虽然只是农民和商人。但他们建立了一支强大的骑兵部队,有能力在匈奴的家乡——蒙古大草原的腹地击败匈奴。

The whole process is quite complicated. The Han Empire actually developed to the West in order to counter Xiongnu in two directions. I’m not going to write that process in a detailed way. Here I will only take three important battles:

整个过程非常复杂。汉朝实际上是为了在两个方向上对抗匈奴而向西发展的。我不打算详细地描写这个过程。我只讲三个重要的战役:

a.Battle of Mobei, 119 BC.(Note: before that, Han and Xiongnu had already fought several large battles, mainly on the borders and in the western regions)

a.漠北之战,公元前119年。(注:在此之前,汉族和匈奴已经打过几次大战,主要是在边境和西部地区)

Battle of Mobei - Wikipedia

漠北之战—维基百科

For the first time, the proud Xiongnu Khanate received a harsh blow, across the vast desert between Mongolia and China, from the Han dynasty. The loss of the Xiongnu was so serious that they couldn't declare a war against the Han Empire for the next ten years.

骄傲的匈奴汗国第一次在蒙古和中国之间的大沙漠遭受到来自汉朝的沉重打击。匈奴战败,损失惨重,以至于他们在接下来的十年里都无力再次向汉朝宣战。

b.Battle of Zhizhi, 36 BC. The end of the Khan of Northern Xiongnu

b.郅支之战,公元前36年。北匈奴可汗的终结。

After battle of Mobei, the Xiongnu Khanate divided into two parts. Northern Xiongnu refused to bow to the Han Empire. Their Khan—Zhizhi defeated the Southern Xiongnu and killed the ambassador of the Han Empire, planning to rebuild a mighty Xiongnu.

漠北之战后,匈奴汗国分裂为两部分。北匈奴拒绝向汉帝国低头。他们的可汗打败了南匈奴,杀死了汉朝的大使,打算重建一个强大的匈奴。

However, General Chentang laughed a surprise attack from Gansu in China to Taraz in Central Asia—the new capital of Northern Xiongnu, across a distance of 4000 miles, to destroy the Khan’s dream. Eventually, the newly-built city was burned and Zhizhi Khan’s head was sent to Han Empire’s capital—ChangAn. Chentang left a sentence that even today, most Chinese know about:

然而,陈汤将军从甘肃突袭中亚的塔拉兹——北匈奴的新首都,陈汤带军跨越4000英里的距离,摧毁了可汗的梦想。最后,这座新建的城市被烧毁了,郅支可汗的头颅被送到了汉朝的首都长安。陈汤留下了一句话,即使在今天,大多数中国人也都知道:

The enemy invading Han empire, no matter how far away they are, will be found and will be destroyed.

犯我强汉者,虽远必诛。

若有敌人入侵我大汉,无论距离多远,大汉必将其消灭。

c.Battle of Altai Mountains, 89 AD. The end of Xiongnu khanate.

c.阿尔泰山脉之战,公元89年。匈奴末年。

After all these, the Xiongnu, now only a state, had to finally face her fate in the year of 89 AD, in the North of the huge Altai Mountains. General Dou took his army and gave a deadly strike to Xiongnu cavalry and their country. He left a inscription to honor that victory, which can still be seen in today’s Mongolia. Chinese have no difficulty reading and understanding these words carved on the stone 2000 years ago.

在经历了这一切变故之后,匈奴终于不得不在公元89年,在阿尔泰山脉的北部,面对自己的宿命。窦将军率军对匈奴骑兵和他们的国家进行了致命的打击。他留下了一个碑文来纪念这场胜利,在今天的蒙古仍然可以看到这块碑文。中国人不难阅读和理解2000年前刻在石头上的这些文字。

Other than conquering the Xiongnu, Han empire also conquered Min, Yue (today’s Southern China), Nam Viet (today’s Vietnam), Korea, Dayuan(today’s Fergahana in the Central Asia. Han attacked it for better horses) and dozens of other states.

除了征服匈奴,汉朝还征服了南越(今天的越南)、朝鲜、大宛(今天中亚的费尔干纳。汉朝为了汗血宝马而进攻这个国家)和其他几十个国家。

Well, so-called lucky days…

嗯,所谓的黄金时代……

No. 3 618 AD. Tang Dynasty was built.

No.3  公元618年。唐朝建立了。

Emperor Taizong: Oh, should we have some parties with our old friends(Turks)? I miss the magnificent steppe of Mongolia!

唐太宗:哦,我们该不该和我们的老朋友(突厥人)聚会热闹热闹?我怀念壮丽的蒙古大草原!

After the destruction of the Xiongnu empire, several centuries passed and a new Khanate was built in Mongolia—the Turk Khanate(also known as the Göktürk Khanate). It’s the first time that the Turks built a large Khanate controlling vast lands from Western Manchuria to Central Asia. The first Emperor of Tang—Li Yuan had to bow to the Turk lord and pay tribute to the Khanate. Even before China was unified as the Sui dynasty, the Göktürk Khanate had influenced the kingdoms in荣华彩票app Northern China in every aspect. But all these changed after the Tang Dynasty was established in China. The second Emperor of the Tang Empire decided to let the fire of anger out on Mongolia. He rebuilt the army of Tang.

匈奴帝国灭亡几个世纪后,蒙古出现了一个新的可汗国——突厥汗国。这是突厥人第一次建立一个庞大的汗国,控制着从满洲西部到中亚的大片土地。唐朝的开国皇帝不得不向突厥领主鞠躬并称颂可汗。早在中国统一为隋朝之前,古突厥汗国就已经在各个方面影响了中国北方的诸侯国。但在唐朝建立后,这一切都改变了。唐朝的第二位皇帝决定让愤怒之火熄灭在蒙古。他重建了唐朝的军队。

 

David Kwa, B.S., M.S. Business Administration (2016)

China for the most part has always been a regional power throughout history. World Superpowers are not common throughout history and only happened a few times. -Mongol Empire -British Empire -USSR -USA

纵观历史,中国在多数时间内一直是一个地区强国。世界超级大国在历史上并不常见,只出现过几次,比如蒙古帝国,大英帝国,苏联,美国。

 

Tesla Eric

Basically,they can fuck up every kingdom in the world at that time Han dynasty Tang dynasty Basically,the only one ancient civilization still remain

基本上,汉代时期中国可以搞垮当时世界上的所有国家。可以说中国是留存至今的唯一古代文明。

 译文来源:三泰虎  http://www.santaihu.com/p/50001.html  译者:Joyceliu

 

Allen Jones

By any metric of size, sophistication, duration, population, standing army, ocean-going trade ships and naval vessels, comparatively thoroughly organized government, better internal roads and canals linking the empire, technological development, international trade, it’s realistically the most powerful nation for most of recorded human history when you look at the better known competitors on those metrics.

以任何规模、复杂程度、持续时间、人口、常备军、远洋商船和海军舰艇、组织相对有序的政府、连通性更好的内部道路和运河、科技发展、国际贸易为衡量标准,在人类历史的大部分时间里,中国实际上是最强大的国家。

 

Rachel Lai-Smith, studied at University of Waterloo

That answer depends largely on who you compare ancient China to?

这个答案很大程度上取决于你用古代中国跟谁作对比?

If you were to compare the level of power and control the Romans, Greeks, Germans of WWII, Vikings of Europe and the Mongols, Xiongnus, Khitans, Jurchens and Manchu of Eastern Asia boasted, China was weak historically speaking.

如果你对比的是罗马人、希腊人、第二次世界大战的德国人、欧洲的维京人、蒙古人、雄那斯、契丹人、女真人和东亚的满族人的实力和管理,你会发现在历史上中国是很弱的。

Most modern people still misunderstand China’s ancient history in that Chinese influence does not come with the level of power and control under the sword like that of the Crusades and the Arabs under Islam, the Conquistador Spaniards, Anglo Saxons who occupied and controlled America and so forth.

大多数现代人对中国的古代历史仍有误解,因为中国的影响力并不像十字军东征和ysl教统治下的阿拉伯人、西班牙征服者、占领和控制美国的盎格鲁-撒克逊人等人那样,是伴随着刀剑和控制而来的。

Most if not all of China’s ancient influences come from importation from the foreigners themselves. The Chinese never implemented anything through power.

中国古代的影响力大部分(如果不是全部的话)源于外国人自己的输入。中国人从来没有通过实力做出过什么成就。

With this being said, China’s Sui Dynasty’s biggest campaign to war against the Koguryeo Dynasty failed with historical humiliation. Even the Xiongnu-Han war victories were not the result of Han Dynasty’s military superiority, rather the violent divide between the Eastern and Western Xiongnu confederations. Many Xiongnu generals defected to Han Dynasty to war against each other which led to their own loss. Barbarian vs Barbarian strategy is what gave Han Dynasty the leverage. But Han Dynasty could never successfully campaign against these groups of people on their own.

话虽如此,中国隋朝对高句丽王朝发动的最大规模的战争却以历史的耻辱而告终。即使是匈奴战争的胜利,也不是汉朝军事优势的结果,而是东西方匈奴联盟之间的武力分裂。许多匈奴将领叛逃到汉朝,互相开战,这导致了他们自己的失败。蛮族对蛮族的战略让汉朝拥有了优势。但是汉朝从来没有成功独自对抗过这些人。

One has to remember, Zheng He fleet was seen as useless and costly by the Ming Emperor which was the main reason why he never gave the fleet of any use for conquest and global expedition like that of Columbus. Bear in mind a great eunuch like that of Zheng He himself was also of non-Han ancestry.

需要记住的是,明朝皇帝认为郑和船队不实用,很烧钱,这也是为什么他从来没有对船队寄予任何征服他国和全球探险的期盼,就像哥伦布那样。记住,郑和这样的大太监也不是汉族人。

On top of this, ancient China’s dynastic failures of the past had internal wars which severely disrupted their progression. And much of their dynastic collapse was due to peasant rebellions seen at unprecedented levels. For instance, Taiping rebellion led by Hong Xiuquan saw more Chinese people dead than the Japanese occupation which was during a more technologically advanced era.

除此之外,中国古代王朝的失败也导致了内部战争,严重影响了国家的发展。王朝的崩塌很大程度上是由于农民的反抗达到了前所未有的程度。例如,由洪秀全领导的太平天国运动。

So to conclude, they were never powerful historically, and they are not yet a superpower

综上所述,他们在历史上从未强大过,现在也算不上超级大国。

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