美版知乎:如果美国自二战以来已证明自己打不败第三世界国家,它是怎么成为超级大国的

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If the United States has proven since WWII that it cannot defeat a third world nation, then how is it a superpower?

如果美国自二战以来已经证明自己无法打败第三世界国家,那么它是怎么成为超级大国的呢?

以下是Quora读者的评论:

Mercedes Sweazy, B.S Media Arts and Science, Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis (2019)

Now I’m an American so take what I say here with a grain of salt.

我是美国人,所以我在这里说的话大家别全信哈。

The United States CAN defeat a third world nation, or even several of them at the same time (depending on the nation’s involved).

美国当然可以打败第三世界国家,甚至可以同时打败几个国家(具体要看哪些国家)。

It’s never been a question of if, it’s been a question of should.

In the Korean War, from what I’ve learned, the United States really backed off when we pushed the opposition to the Chinese border.

这并不是一个“如果”的问题,而是一个“应该”的问题。

在朝鲜战争中,据我所知,当我们把反对派逼到中国边境时,美国退军了。

Guess who was waiting for us? China. Guess who told us that if we crossed the border to pursue the North Koreans, they would join the conflict? China. Guess who is and was a superpower who we did not want to fuck with? China.

猜猜谁在等我们?中国。猜猜是谁告诉我们,如果我们越境入侵朝鲜,他们就会参战?猜猜谁是我们不愿与其发生正面冲突的超级大国?中国。

So we backed off, told off the commander who tried pushing his luck, and eventually a cease fire was written up. Technically the war never ended.

所以我们撤军了,说服那个想碰碰运气的指挥官,最后我们达成了停火协议。从技术上讲,战争从未结束。

But we knew that if we pushed our luck, we wouldn’t be fighting a third world nation, guerilla tactics-using with relatively small local population. We’d be fighting China. I can point to almost what…10,000 years of why that’s a bad idea?

但我们知道,如果我们继续努力,我们就不会与第三世界国家作战,也就不会与当地人口相对较少的游击战术作战。我们将与中国作战。我可以告诉你们,为什么这是个坏主意?

So why haven’t we “beaten” third world nations yet?

Because other Superpowers are involved.

Russia in Syria.

Russia in Cuba.

China in Korea.

(Pretty sure, correct me on this one) China and Russia in Vietnam.

那么,为什么我们从没有“打败”第三世界国家呢?

因为这些战争涉及了其他超级大国。

叙利亚战争,有俄罗斯在。

古巴战争,有俄罗斯在。

朝鲜战争,有中国在。

(很确定,有错的话纠正我)越南战争,有中国和俄罗斯在。

If it’s not an “enemy” it’s an “ally”.

UK, Canada, etc in Iraq and Afghanistan.

不是“敌人”,就是“盟友”。

在伊拉克和阿富汗战争中,有英国,加拿大等。

God knows how many more in fact, I’m only 2% the war buff my grandfather is.

But the point is we could, but we won’t.

天知道还有多少实际上,我对战争的了解只有我祖父的2%。

但问题的重点在于我们有实力,但我们没办法。

We won’t, because there is someone to stop us, even when we want to.

We could nuke the whole world and walk away victorious.

我们没办法,因为有人会阻止我们,即使我们有这个决心。

我们可以用核武器毁灭整个世界,然后凯旋而归。

But what would that make us?

What would be the price of victory?

How would it affect the soul of humanity that still resides here on this soil?!

I’m not going to lie.

那我们会变成什么呢?

胜利的代价是什么?

将如何影响仍然居住在这片土地上的人类的灵魂?

我不想撒谎。

There are Americans who are outright frustrated by our progress on the world war table.

Americans who have personally told me in debates that it is in American interest, to use THE BOMB.

有些美国人对我们在世界大战问题上的进展感到十分沮丧。

那些曾在辩论中亲自告诉我,使用原子弹符合美国利益的美国人。

But there is someone else, an American, an Ally, or an Enemy superpower…

Who puts their hand on our shoulder and tells Us to put the toys down and walk away.

So we do (should).

但还有其他人,一个美国人,一个盟友,或者一个敌对的超级大国……

他们把手放在我们的肩膀上,告诉我们放下玩具,走开。

我们就照做了(应该这么做)。

 

John Geare, studied at Dickinson College

No such thing has been proven because, since World War II, the US has not been at war with any third world nation; not by itself, anyway.

这种说法没有得到证实,因为自二战以来,美国从未与任何第三世界国家交战;至少不是美国自己下场交战。

THIRD WORLD NATIONS AND THE COLD WAR: So, what is a “third world” nation? Or rather, what was?

第三世界国家与冷战:那么,什么是“第三世界”国家?或者更确切地说,什么是曾经的“第三世界”国家?

The “third world” moniker is a phrase originally coined by Alfred Sauvy, a French scholar who introduced the phrase in a 1952 opinion piece he wrote for L'Observateur, a popular French magazine which was similar in content and style to the American Time Magazine. In those days, the international conflicts and tensions of the time were called the “Cold War,” a term which was introduced by none other than George Orwell (of 1984 fame) in his October 1945 essay published by the British newspaper,&nb荣华彩票下载sp;Tribune.

“第三世界”这个绰号最初是由法国学者阿尔弗雷德·索维创造的,他在1952年为《观察家》杂志写了一篇评论文章,文中介绍了这个词。《观察家》是一本很受欢迎的法国杂志,在内容和风格上与美国《时代》杂志相似。在那些日子里,当时的国际冲突和紧张局势被称为“冷战”,这个术语是由乔治·奥威尔(George Orwell, 1984年成名)在他1945年10月发表在英国报纸《论坛报》上的文章中提出的。

Keying on Orwell’s notion of a cold war, Sauvy defined “third world nations” as those countries who were neither aligned with the democratic west, nor the communist bloc.

索维借用奥威尔的“冷战”概念,将“第三世界国家”定义为既不与西方结盟,也不与共-产主义集团结盟的国家。

From the querent’s point of view, the facial nominees for third world enemies of the U.S. presumably include North Korea and Vietnam, neither of whom were defeated by the U.S. (and its allies). The problem is that both nations were aligned with the Soviet Union and/or China, so they did not fit the definition of third world countries. Of course there is the additional problem that neither action was engaged by the U.S. alone; in the case of Korea, the action was sanctioned by the UN; in the case of Vietnam, allies fought alongside the U.S.

从题主的观点来看,被提名为美国第三世界敌人的国家可能包括朝鲜和越南,这两个国家都没有被美国(及其盟友)击败。问题是这两个国家都与苏联和/或中国结盟,所以它们不符合第三世界国家的定义。当然,还有一个问题是,这两项行动都不是美国单方进行的;就朝鲜而言,这一行动得到了联合国的批准;在越南问题上,盟国与美国并肩作战。

SUPERPOWER? By most measures (e.g. military power, economies, population size and influence on global politics and trade) the United States, Russia and China probably qualify. And they are so qualified because their policies and actions are significant factors in the formation of policies, alliances and political activities of everyone else.

至于超级大国?以大多数标准(如军事实力、经济、人口规模和对全球政治和贸易的影响)衡量,美国、俄罗斯和中国可能符合标准。他们之所以符合标准,是因为他们的政策和行动是其他国家制订政策、结盟和政治活动的重要影响因素。

TO THE QUESTION: The United States has not “defeated” any third world nation (no matter how that term is defined) because the U.S. has not been at war with any “third world nation.” If you don’t fight, you don’t win, and you don’t lose

所以对于这个问题:美国没有“打败”任何第三世界国家(无论这个词是如何定义的),因为美国没有与任何“第三世界国家”交战。如果你没有参战,你就不会赢,也不会输。

 

John Freiler, Political pundit

Since WWII, the US cannot defeat a third world nation? No sane third world nation believes that. Now, cannot defeat every third world nation, sure. Some nations are viewed as not worth the bother. More on this in a moment.

自二战以来,美国就没能打败第三世界国家?任何一个理智的第三世界国家都不会相信这种说法。当然,我们不能打败所有的第三世界国家。有些国家我们觉得不值得大动干戈。稍后将对此进行详细介绍。

“Then how is it a superpower?” This shows that you don't understand what a superpower nation is. A nation, just regular, can mostly control issues within its borders and the nation's that share a border with it will often consider what's going on with the regular nation as they decide how they will conduct their affairs. An internationally powerful nation, or a regional power will have nations that don't share a border but are in the region or political bloc worrying about how the powerful nation will view their actions. A global superpower has nations all over the world concerned about how the superpower is feeling about them and any action they may take.

“那么美国怎么会是一个超级大国呢?”这说明你并不明白什么是超级大国。一个国家,普通国家,可以在很大程度上控制边界内的问题,而与之共享边界的国家在决定如何处理事务时,通常会考虑本国与普通国家之间发生了什么。一个国际强国,或者一个地区强国,会面临一些国家的问题,这些国家与强国没有共享边界,但是在该地区或政治集团中,他们会担心强国如何看待他们的一举一动。一个全球超级大国会让全世界的国家都担心这个超级大国对他们的感觉,以及他们可能采取的任何行动。

The US is certainly still in the superpower club and seems to be it's only occupant at this time.

美国无疑仍然稳坐超级大国俱乐部的一席之位,而且似乎还是目前唯一的会员。

But what about getting defeated by a third world power? For the best answer to this, I reccomend you read “Empires of Trust” (I'll put link in when I'm at a PC). It shows how much of Rome's history and the US's overlaps, and not in the way you're probably thinking. In short, if it's just destruction, the US can pretty much deal out any nation. Fortunately for the world, we're not interested in just destroying random nations. If any nation were foolish enough to convince us that their destruction was warranted, they would not be long for this world.

又该如何看待其被第三世界国家击败的事呢?对于这个问题的最佳答案,我建议你读读“信任帝国”(等我登陆电脑,我会把链接贴上来)。书中提到了罗马的历史与美国的历史有多么相似,而且不是以你可能认为的方式。简而言之,如果只是破坏,美国几乎可以对付任何国家。幸运的是,我们对随意摧毁一个国家并不感兴趣。如果有哪个国家愚蠢到让我们相信毁灭他们是正当行为,那么他们就活到头儿了。

But we're actually a nation of people who want to live our lives and be left alone to do our thing. But other nations actually keep coming to us and asking us to interfere.

我们实际上是一个人民的国家,人民想要过自己的生活,想要不受纷扰,做自己的事情。但其他国家却不断找上门来,要求我们插手介入。

 

Mmuhammad Shah

Despite my Pro-Russian slant, I shall be frank.

尽管我有亲俄倾向,但我会坦诚直言。

The US is a military superpower, where no other nation can compete. Sure, it tends to suck in defining war objectives politically, and winning hearts of minds culturally, it can fuck shit up. But why “can’t the US defeat a third world superpower”

美国是一个军事超级大国,其他任何国家都无法匹敌。当然,美国出于政治目的选择的战争目标很糟糕,在文化上赢得人心方面也很糟糕。但“美国为什么不能击败第三世界超级大国”?

It’s not that the US can’t. It’s that the US wouldn’t.

并非是美国没有取胜的能力。而是美国不想这么做。

Russia, could fuck Georgia up. It fucked Georgia enough to teach it a lesson, but that’s all.

俄罗斯可以把格鲁吉亚搞砸。它把格鲁吉亚搞得够呛,足以给它惨重的教训,但也仅此而已。

Mind you, the US, could Destroy Iraq, Afghanistan. It could wipe out all able bodied men, exterminate population centres of folks, and put a Puppet government. It could! But they wouldn’t.

请注意,美国有能力摧毁伊拉克和阿富汗。它可以消灭所有健全的人,建立傀儡政府。它可以的!但是他们不会这么做。

 

Patrick McCabe, former US Army (Retired) & Combat Veteran (RTO Vietnam)

Let’s first take a look at what a superpower is… Basically it’s a country that project diplomatic, economic and military power internationally. It isn’t a country that can defeat a third world nation. Since WWII and until recently, there were really but two. The United States and the USSR . The USSR dissolved, crumbled and reformed as Russia, who has gained back some of but not all it's former power. Chain is now a superpower as is the EU. So basically there are four superpowers today.

让我们先来看看什么是超级大国……基本而言,它是一个在国际上展现外交、经济和军事实力的国家,而非一个可以打败第三世界国家的国家。自二战以来至今,只有两个超级大国:美国和苏联。苏联了,分裂了,改革成了俄罗斯,重获了以前的一些实力,但还有差距。中国现在是一个超级大国,欧盟也是。所以如今可以说有四个超级大国。

Now let’s to go onto the “..cannot defeat a third world nation..” There is no long-term military engagement which the United States has been involved in since WWII in which it could not militarily defeat its foe. None.

现在让我们谈谈“…无法打败第三世界国家…”自二战以来,美国没有参与过不能在军事上击败敌人的长期军事行动。一次也没有。

Politics and purpose has been the deciding factor in each limited military action since WWII, actions which include Korea, Vietnam, and the various hostilities in the Mideast.

政治和目的是二战后每一次小型军事行动的决定性因素,包括朝鲜战争、越南战争和中东地区的各种敌对行动。

Today the United States in all reality is the preeminent military power in the world with the capability to defeat any nation… any. That capability comes not only from its military shall we say firepower; but its ability to project that power internationally for sustained periods of time and with massive and lethal force. There is no other nation (today) that can sustain a long-term all-out war on a foreign front.

现如今,美国实际上是世界上最强大的军事力量,有能力打败任何国家……没错,任何国家。这种能力不仅来自于它的军事,我们应该说是火力;但它有能力在全世界以大规模和致命的实力投射这种实力,并持续一段时间。(如今)没有别的国家能够在外国战线上维持长期的全面荣华彩票官网战争。

 

Trish Woodward

Marketing. The United States manufactures weapons of war. Airplanes, ground transport vehicles, bombs, etc. How do you show your potential customers how well your product works unless you demonstrate? Pick a third world nation and go to war. .

市场营销。美国制造战争武器:飞机、地面运输工具、炸弹等。你如何向你的潜在客户展示你的产品有多好?选择一个第三世界国家,然后发动战争。

There are a class of people in the United States that in order to get medical attention or an education, they must enlist in the military. We've taught them that fighting for the Red White and Blue is an honor and so to enlist is to serve one's country in exchange for...

美国有一类人,为了得到医疗照顾或教育,他们必须从军。我们告诉他们,为美国国旗而战是一种荣誉,所以参军报国来换取……

 

Stephen Shoemate, Retired from large-current power supply repair

The United States is THE superpower, make no mistake about that. The fact that spineless politicians send our military all over the world to perform tasks without hurting the enemy's feelings seems to escape the notice of our citizens. The other side is never hampered by the same considerations. Never, since WWII, has our military been told to wage all-out conventional warfare, much less using nuclear weapons. There are always so many restrictions imposed on our fighting forces, that it's surprising they are allowed to even shoot back when attacked. Third world, or developed countries, tell our services to go non-nuclear, but otherwise full bore war, until the enemy unconditionally surrenders, and they will accomplish that mission. Until then, as long as our people go to battle with a hand tied behind their backs, they will find victory impossible, or nearly so. Sending 'embedded reporters' with our forces, so the enemy leaders can watch our troops in action, live, has got to be the pinnacle of stupidity. Our leaders have been shooting our soldiers in the feet for too long.

美国是超级大国,这一点毫无疑问。懦弱的政客把我们的军队派到世界各地执行任务,没有重挫敌人的士气,这似乎没有引起我们公民的注意。另一方从来不会有这样的思想顾虑。自二战以来,我们的军队从未被告知要进行全面的常规战争,更不用说使用核武器了。我们的战斗部队总是受到很多限制,令人惊讶的是,他们居然可以在受到攻击时进行还击。第三世界国家和发达国家告诉我们的军队不能使用核武器,否则就要爆发全面战争,直到敌人无条件投降,他们将完成这一使命。在那之前,只要我们的战士背着一只手去战斗,他们就会发现胜利是不可能的,或者几乎是不可能的。派遣“前线记者”与我们的部队同行,这样敌军领导人就可以看到我们部队的行动,生活,简直是愚蠢至极。我们的领导人陷我们的士兵于水火之中,这样的历史已经太久了。

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